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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:15 pm 
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Who will guard the guardians? (Socrates though I doubt he built track.)

Guard rails are killing me. First it was the wing rail kinking when I bent it. Thanks to Ed and being much more precise, I've got that licked - pretty much. I'll have a perfectly functioning switch, track guage slides thru smooth, test trucks roll sweet, and then I solder in the guardrail and bam! There goes the neighborhood. Generally it is the diverging route on a turnout, while on wyes I don't have a pattern.

Suddently the flangeway gauge will be very stickly and the truck wheels will ride up and make a noticeable clunk on the way past the frog. I keep playing with it: sometimes by re-sweating the guard while putting pressure on it, sometimes I have to lightly file in the flangeway to ease room.

Analyzing it, I have a very difficult time holding the guardrail down when soldering the second end. The first one is okay cause I have the whole rail to put the second finger of my left hand on while feeding the solder with thumb and forefinger. Doing the other one, there is no place to hold. I've tried reverse feeding by curling the solder over the rail towards me while heating the tie, but that's awkward and doesn't always work.

Strange, but these little pieces are my biggest problem. Also, I find that even though I cut the guardrail flush with the fixture, they always seem to be a bit short. I'm trying to "fudge" out a bit, but usually end up with piece to long.

Anybody got a secret trick for these things?

Robert

(12 turnouts, 3 wyes, and in the middle of my first 3-way)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:49 pm 
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Location: East Texas - USA
Robert,

OK - first a three way is absolutely the worst case first time build (maybe a double slip comes real close). Third is doing the double crossing - for certain a big challenge. Get your 'practice' on the plain standard turnouts.

Cut file and fit the guard rails. Check for length and the 'draw' angle. Tin the underneath base, tin the PC ties (very lightly here on the ties - use a good solder wick to clean up most if not all the solder).

Place - check the track check gage (guard rail to frog point) with the NMRA gage - holding in place. May have to 'thin' the width of the base by filing the base side just a bit. (Same can be true of the wing rails to make the frog flangeway nice and tight at times- depends on the fixture and the rails).

Now - all fitted - checked - tinned. Use toothpicks - strip wood, edge of file - something to get the hold of the flangeway width - while maintaining the track check gage to the frog point. Use one of those nice heavy spring clips to hold in place against the spacer, and have a good weight down on the railhead top at center of the guard rail.

Now dab just a bit of the liquid flux (not too much) and hit with hot iron - should lock in place and be dead on accurate. Remove the spacers and clip - test - you'll be in like Flynn.

The fixtures are good - but I'd never solder up without checking with a gage. I prefer to use two point track gages (roller type) even when doing the basic stock rails.

_________________
-ed mccamey-
COSLAR RR - http://www.coslar.us/
NMRA Standards and Conformance Department
PROTO & FINE Scale Coordinator
I estimate I have about 5 pounds of coupler springs somewhere in the vicinity of my workbench.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:49 pm 
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Ed,
First, I didn't explain myself well. I did 12 turnouts and 3 wyes before I attempted the 3-way. I'm getting to where I can build a nice switch in a bit over an hour assuming nothing goes wrong. More important, I'm learning how the geometry of a frog and of a set of points work and how to correct if I have problems. I use an NMRA standard gauge - Mark IVd I think.

The flangeway is quite valuable, just figured out how to use the points part correctly, don't quite no what "no go" is for and the track guage seems a bit wide to me. I check constantly with this guage and with two pair of Bachman On30 trucks, one frieght and one passenger. I checked guage on both, and the archbars are spot on while the passenger are a bit tight. It seems to complain at things the other trucks miss, so I keep it for a test. I found that HO trucks can just sail thru my track work (I have Kadee 36" metal wheel bettendorfs), while the On30 are more demanding. The flange on the b'mnn trucks is significantly deeper and thus pickier. I don't let a switch go untill all of my test trucks sail thru without a hitch or a clunk and the standards guage passes thru everything correctly. Haven't heard of roller type guages. Where does one get them?

The 3-way was challenging, and Tim's injunction to build up to them was well advised. It went fairly well (I do have a slightly faulty fixture), though it took a while. The only truly problematic area is the points. This is my first experience with a hinge and I'm not sure if I have them right. It seems to require *a lot* of effort to move them particularly the first set with the extremely short throw. I think Tim should move the connection tie for the first point set about 1/2" up the switch. This would give more flexibility to the points and I can't see how it would bother anything else. (Note that 12 turnouts later, I am such an expert;-) I also had to resolder to the throw plate several times to get the correct clearance. Not sure what I'm going to use to actuate these once on the layout.

Guardrails. I hadn't thought of tinning. That's a good idea. I'm using liguid flux and a resistance soldering rig. I get really extraordinary joins. I have - so far - tried to solder everything by holding it in place with my fingers while heating the work. The jist of your advice seems to be prep carefully, get everything in place and in guage, the weight or clamp in place so both hands are free to solder.

What sort of material do you use to act as a spacer in the guardrail flangeway? Tooth pick maybe, humm. Let me play with that. I see that clamping and weighting needs to become part of my repertoire.

I think part of my problem is that I've watched Tim's video probably 3 times all the way thru and certain parts more often as I've learned turnout construction. Tim has amazing dexterity and of course he has probably built at least a thousand turnouts so he makes it deceptively easy. I don't know if you've seen it, but he does the whole thing just by holding pieces in place with his fingers as he solders them together. Impressive.

I'll try your suggestions on my next turnout. Think I'll go back and try a #4 in C83 and see if I've improved after the "big three."

Ed, thanks again for your insight.

Robert


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:57 pm 
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Robert,

Glad to hear that you aren't starting with the three way. That was not clear at first. You sound as though you're making great progress.

On30 vs. HO. You need to set the passenger trucks wheel set out correctly. Yes the On30 flanges are supplied by several manufacturers with deeper flanges. These can be a problem with smaller rails and any obstruction in the flangeways. They are also a bit tougher to set the wheel gage correctly. You need to check the wheel set check gage on these very carefully.

Study the RP-2 instructions for the NMRA gage. Setting the wheel sets is a bit more trickier than just getting the flanges to ride in the open slots. The gage has to accommodate the allowances and there's more width to the flange groves as a result. Proper wheel check gage is the back side of one wheel firmly against the inner flange grove (towards the centerline) and the other end - the flange is just touching the outer side on the face of the flange. The gentle pressure arrows on the RP-2 diagrams are correct, but the positions of the flanges in the groves are not as clear as they should be. You want the wheel set to MAXIMIZE the wheel spread width - WITHOUT exceeding the wheel check gage. The wheel check distance is the inside to the outside of the opposing flange groves - not outside to outside or inside to inside. This is super critical for On30 - since fully compliant HO sized RP-25 wheels are not always used. (O scale wheels are a code 115 vs. the HO at code 110). For On30, the frog flangeway does need to be right at the 0.050" (not more - but right at) to give the extra clearance for the larger wheels.

Hinged points should actually be more free moving and not stiff. The whole idea is that the point heal is NOT bound to the closure rail. There's several ways to do a hinge. The shortened rail joiner is a fine way - but only ONE end is soldered (either point or the closure) - the other is free. Before final installation, move the point back and forth greater than normal movement to open up the joiner and have some extra freedom. If you use the spiked each side hinging, the spikes have to be well set and tight to the base sides to keep the rail head properly aligned. Hinged points are trickier - but a far more prototypical installation, and far less movement tension when completed.

You also need to hinge the actual mounting to the throw bar for really short points. This is either a spike or a small brass rod soldered to the point tip only and not the throw bar (remove the copper cladding) and free to rotate in a tight press fit drilled hole in the throw bar.

Remember the TRACK check gage is a MINIMUM, while the WHEEL check gage is a MAXIMUM. And, the SPAN gage in the TRACK has to be less than the WHEEL back-to-back. The dimensions are very interrelated.

_________________
-ed mccamey-
COSLAR RR - http://www.coslar.us/
NMRA Standards and Conformance Department
PROTO & FINE Scale Coordinator
I estimate I have about 5 pounds of coupler springs somewhere in the vicinity of my workbench.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:51 pm 
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Ed,

Funny thing. I never looked at the instruction sheet that came with the gage. I mean what was there to know ;-) Sometimes my "full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes" makes me miss things. I read RP-2 carefully checking back and forth with 3 trucks, a B'mann archbar and a passenger truck and a Kadee 36" bettendorf.

The Kadee and the archbar are pretty close to being in gage. One wheel on the passenger truck *is* too narrow. Can't seem to reset it with just my fingers. Will have to try something else. This is the truck that has been the pickiest going thru the track work. The B'mann flanges are a bit deep. I found the wheel diameter to be about .540 and the diameter with the flange to be .575, so I guess the flange is ~.035. Don't know what this value should be. Width of all 8 Bmann wheels varied between .104 and .109, so I guess they are closer to the HO standard than some.

BTW the Kadee sails thru all of my trackwork. And when I'm real precise the Bmann does fine also. This is all C70.

I ran the gage(s) thru all of my newly built turnouts and most of them are spot on. I have 2 where the flangeway between the guardrail and the stock rail is too tight. Will try to correct that.

Stiff 3-way points. I'm not sure what "free moving" is. They move, but especially the first set with the very short point length require some effort. They certainly don't move as well as the last wye I built. I was careful about following the directions (they are good) and don't see what I could do to repair these. I crimped the rail joiner on the moving end and soldered it to the fixed end. Maybe I'll just build another one and see if I get better with practice. You noted that I should "hinge the actual mounting to the throw bar." Not sure I'm picturing this properly. Am I to solder a small brass rod - to which side of the point? Seems that it will be in the way of the wheel on the inside and the fit against the stock rail on the outside. Can you direct me to an example, please?

I think I finally have track, wheel, and span worked out. Makes sense once I think it thru.

I sent Tim an email noting that the template has two missing breaks in the PCB ties thus won't electrically isolate. Also raised the suggestion of adding another PCB tie close to the second throw bar so the first set of points have a much longer throw.

Again, thanks for the info. I intend to get good at this.

Robert


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:27 pm 
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Robert,

On the On30 Bachmann wheels. The HO sized standards specification is for wheels having a minimum width of 0.108" (usual RP is code 110). Flange depth should not exceed RP-25 of 0.025" (allowed standards flange depth is 0.028") - but with On30, using 'standard O' code 175 RP-25 wheels - the flange could be 0.045". Using the On3 wheel RP-25 code 116 the flange depth is 0.028". I'd suggest you consider exchanging your wheels sets with a premium On3O code 110 or On3 code 116 with true RP-25 profile.

Getting the check gage right is still the most critical. I can understand that with one set having a tight gage - this WILL lead to problems with the trackwork.

Hinged points - see the following references from the FastTracks Forum:

The Tim Warris newseletter:
An Alternative to Solid Soldered Switchpoints-Newsletter #8
http://www.handlaidtrack.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14

In the HO forums:
http://www.handlaidtrack.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=347
see the 'littletree' posting with pictures:
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: 1st dbl slip switch w/quicksticks

In the HO forums:
http://www.handlaidtrack.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=356
see the 'intalco39' posting with instructions:
Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: #6 Double Slip

I use the basic hinged throwbar method - but instead of a spike, I use a 0.025" brass rod, first bending at 90 degrees, cutting, and filing like a spike head - solder - then file and fit for flangeway clearance.

I'm suspecting your only problems are with the varied wheel sets and not your trackwork.

_________________
-ed mccamey-
COSLAR RR - http://www.coslar.us/
NMRA Standards and Conformance Department
PROTO & FINE Scale Coordinator
I estimate I have about 5 pounds of coupler springs somewhere in the vicinity of my workbench.


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