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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:11 pm 
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I finally found liquid flux. Definitely works better than the stick stuff I was using. I am finding it hard, however, to clean the flux off after construction is complete. (Also to get it off the fixture.) I've tried washing and gently scrubbing with hot water and dish detergent and while that helps, there is still quite a bit on some places. Is there a product or suggested method for dealing with flux residue?

TIA

Robert


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:40 pm 
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Location: East Texas - USA
In the metal and machine shops, brass and copper gets 'pickled' to remove silver solder fluxes and clean up assemblies. The nickel silver rail is really a brass alloy with some nickel and zinc. The PC ties are of course copper plated.

Pickling is often times done with a strong acid - but a safer and very effective pickle is to use vinegar (a mild acid) and salt - thinned down some with water. Take a half-gallon of water and half-pound of salt, heat to a simmer and dissolve the salt throughly. Remove heat - let cool, add slowly a half-gallon of white vinegar, mixing well. Use this as a soak for the completed turnouts and wash throughly afterwards with soap and water - then follow with clean water rinse. The pickle can be reused many times until it gets really 'cruddy'.

It will not harm anything, and will most likely provide a super clean that's really ready for painting and final finish.

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-ed mccamey-
COSLAR RR - http://www.coslar.us/
NMRA Standards and Conformance Department
PROTO & FINE Scale Coordinator
I estimate I have about 5 pounds of coupler springs somewhere in the vicinity of my workbench.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:07 pm 
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How did you come up with this? :D


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:47 pm 
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Location: East Texas - USA
I also build 7-1/2" gage live steam. Construct a lot of my fittings from raw metal stock and some castings. (The live steam club I belong to has master patterns and once a year we make our own foundry castings). Operate an 850 lbs. FA1 electric powered locomotive. Currently building a Gene Allen mogul.

Have my own small machine shop and weekly access to a really well equipped machine shop facility. Learned a lot from other guys in the live steam and machining trade.

_________________
-ed mccamey-
COSLAR RR - http://www.coslar.us/
NMRA Standards and Conformance Department
PROTO & FINE Scale Coordinator
I estimate I have about 5 pounds of coupler springs somewhere in the vicinity of my workbench.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:02 pm 
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CAUTION ON USING "Pickle" Solution:

Store the pickling in plastic (milk carton) - NOT anything metal. Use it in a plastic tray or glass. It is great for coppers and brasses - but don't allow any steel in it for very long - will dissolve steel (even stainless) if left in the pickle for extended period. Though will work well on rusted steel as a wash - then rinse, wire brush, and coat with WD-40.

_________________
-ed mccamey-
COSLAR RR - http://www.coslar.us/
NMRA Standards and Conformance Department
PROTO & FINE Scale Coordinator
I estimate I have about 5 pounds of coupler springs somewhere in the vicinity of my workbench.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:41 pm 
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Ed,

It's obvious that you have a great deal of experience in track and construction. I notice that you appear in several places (railroad line, for example) always giving solid, balanced, useful advice. I'm a complete tyro when it comes to hand-laid track so I know some of my questions are so basic as to be even irritating, but you just pass on your knowledge in a clear and friendly way. So all I'm saying is thanks and expressing appreciation that you are so willing to give of the information that you probably earned the hard way by doing.

I learned quite some time ago that when I'm trying to do something new, if I can find someone who has had the experience before me it certainly shortens my learning curve so I don't have to make all the mistakes over again. (I can make plenty of new mistakes on my own!)

One of the interesting things I've observed in my turnout building progress is that the first one or two were really quite good but then I hit a series where I seemed to be making mistakes. Might be the "little knowledge" proverb. What I've learned from those less than perfect switches is that I can watch and analyze why a wheel set is not rolling thru properly and by careful inspection figure out how to fix the problem. The guard rail for example is important. The wing rail is far more critical than I had realized. I had a slight kink in one that lead to the wheel riding up and occasionally derailing. Also, the flangeway part of the track gauge is critical as in another case the distance between the wing and the guard rails was too tight. Made for some weird tracking.

Anyway, thanks for the help and I'm having a blast. I just did my first Code 70 (the first six were Code 100 - I'm in On30). I found it harder to work with because it is so fine. Time to do another one.

Robert


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:02 am 
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Robert,

Thank you for the compliments. I really enjoy handlaying track. I've been doing if since 1960 - correctly since 1961.

When I was a young teenager, I hung out with older guys in model railroading and had to 'prove' myself as serious. I visited often with Buddy Hall - his wife Bobbye Hall became a fixture in Model Railroading with Hall's Hobby House, Hallmark brass imports, and she was a grand lady. One evening at Buddy and Bobbye's layout a visiting railroader was in town to do a clinic for the Lone Star Region convention in 1961. I had discussed my early efforts and problems with handlaying. When time came to part for the evening, Buddy insisted I put my bike in his 1927 Hispano Sueza and have him drive me home - he didn't want to incur my mothers wrath, being very late at night. Well the visiting clinician came along and asked if he could see my layout and the problems I was having with my turnouts. Mom fixed coffee and hot chocolate, and we went to my layout. He noted right away my problem, and sat me down and directed me on doing a turnout. Wouldn't do it for me - but showed me how to lay it out, and what to do. That fellow was John Allen and I wasn't even aware of who he was or his fame until latter on. I've always encouraged others and want to return the favor I had. I certainly can't claim the kind of fame that John Allen had and still has, but what I do know from a lot of experience I can and will share.

P.S. Smaller code rail actually becomes easier to work with with some familiarity. It's easier to file, bend, and shape. Smaller codes have the ability to fit closer tolerances and allow for 'perfected' flangeways - but you are right, one can have too tight a flangeway. There's a 'sweet spot' on flangeways, too wide and they make a gap that causes bumps and derailments with wheel drop, too narrow and they crowd long wheel base multi-axles because of the mid-ordinate offset problem. Just right, and a flangeway serves it's purpose. Model physics is different than prototype physics, and wheels have to also be matched to the track - it's a VERY interrelated set of variables.

_________________
-ed mccamey-
COSLAR RR - http://www.coslar.us/
NMRA Standards and Conformance Department
PROTO & FINE Scale Coordinator
I estimate I have about 5 pounds of coupler springs somewhere in the vicinity of my workbench.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:00 pm 
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Ed,

That's a great story. I've heard that John Allen even when he became "famous" was personable and also wanted everyone to do as well as he did.

My young railroading didn't have much support so I was always trying to build layouts in crawl on your knees uninsulated attics or crawl spaces and my dad was a wandering man, so nothing ever got done. It never occurred to me that I could actually hand lay track. Seemed so difficult.

I had an odd experience over on RR-L (which in general is a great group). I had proudly displayed my first 3 turnouts noting the things I'd learned and amid the "atta boys" one guy said how sad it was that I'd spent all that money when all I needed was a file, a few sticks of rail, and some PCB ties. I had noted in my post that my prior efforts to build turnouts had been a complete failure. The geometry is both tricky and demanding. I think what Tim has done has opened up tracklaying to a whole group of us whom for whatever reason hadn't been able to do it before. So to me $90 for a very precise jig is money well spent. And they are beautiful tools!

I do find the wing rail to be one of the things I have to re-work. I'd thought that the points would have been the hardest, but for some reason my wings tend to "kink" along the z axis as well as in the xy plane. I've studied it carefully and the end of the wing seems to sometimes "roll up" pinching the flangeway. So far I've been able to get them back down by reheating the solder while putting pressure down on the end of the wing. Can't figure out just what I'm doing wrong to get the kink in the first place.

Anyway, thanks again.

Robert


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:24 pm 
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Robert,

I sometimes get that 'roll up kink' myself when I get into too much of a hurry. The key is to understand you rail profile.

I usually cut my rail piece about 1/4" longer than the closure and wing combination first. Mark where the rail bend will go allowing some extra length for both the closure and the wing.

Then with Xuron cutters, I nip the rail base on both sides where the bend mark is. Clean up the nips - removing burs on the bottom base and both sides of the base using flat file on the bottom and a fine angled file on the upper base.

Now the cleaned nip slot on the outside of the bend is just fine - but the one that will be on the inner side can still buckle and cause a non-level kink. One of my special tools that I've LOVED, is a superior Swiss Vallorbe screw head slot file. This is a very thin (only 0.008"), very slightly flexible file with a fine taper on each side used to dress of screw head slots. I use this to open up and 'V' the inner slot so that there's no buckle.

When the actual bend is made, I over bend first then realign. Using some fine pliers, I make the bend just fit right and check the levelness. One fitted - I can carefully mark the wing rail end and prepare gather bend and/or filing.

Only then do a curve the divergent closure and lay in to mark the cutof point at the point heal for final fitting.

This method works perfect when using hinged points as the closure is fitted separately. For one piece points and closure, you have to fit the points filing first - then shape the closure - and then do marking and fitting for the bend - and final mark and cut the wing.

See the attached picture of a frog with the screw head slot file.


Attachments:
P64_2e_frog_check.JPG
P64_2e_frog_check.JPG [ 269.33 KiB | Viewed 13470 times ]

_________________
-ed mccamey-
COSLAR RR - http://www.coslar.us/
NMRA Standards and Conformance Department
PROTO & FINE Scale Coordinator
I estimate I have about 5 pounds of coupler springs somewhere in the vicinity of my workbench.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:45 pm 
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Ed,
I got to my next turnout - #10 and tried your approach and also gave the wing rails a great deal more respect than I had before. This one was a significant improvement though I still had a tiny bit of "pinching" between the wing and guard rails on the thru route only. I was able to correct it by using a small punch and putting some pressure on the wing bending over a bit towards the guard.

In examining it microscopically I think I cut for the "kink" slightly off from the apex of the triangle causing the problem. On the #4 turnout fixture I have, Tim has left off the reference mark for where the wing rail should bend. On the #5 fixture it is there and I have had less trouble with those wings. Course I was also using C100 so other variables are involved.

Question. In the photo of that beautiful turnout, I notice you have beveled the approaches to both guard rails. Is this more correctly prototypical or something you have found than improves performance? Both? Also, that would be a **real** useful file. Never seen one like it. Any idea where one can be purchased?

Thanks much.

Robert


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:07 pm 
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Robert,

I make the cuts, then the bend, then fit in place, mark and trim the wing rail length - helps to place the bend in the right place. Check also that the 'pinching' isn't being cause by the guard rail being too close to the stock rail - the guard rail should be set with the NMRA gage for the track check gage. The guard rail flangeway is wider than the frog flangeway.

The file is a screw head slot file. Wonderful piece of tool. It's a swiss Vallorbe Gardon (expensive - but lasts decades when taken care of). I get this and several files and other VERY fine tools and stuff from a jewelry supplier in the UK. Haven't found a US supplier.

http://www.eternaltools.com/viewproduct ... RangeID=43

I order about twice a year various things. Use the internet and a credit card. Stuff usually arrives here in Texas in about 1 week. Note that British Pounds are now better than 2:1 ($ 2.05 for one pound :x ) so these do get expensive - I bought most of my files stock several years ago at a far better exchange rate.

_________________
-ed mccamey-
COSLAR RR - http://www.coslar.us/
NMRA Standards and Conformance Department
PROTO & FINE Scale Coordinator
I estimate I have about 5 pounds of coupler springs somewhere in the vicinity of my workbench.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:19 pm 
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Location: East Texas - USA
Robert,

About the taper gather on the wing and the guard rails. This is a prototypical style used by many railroads. There is no actual bend of the rail, the entire taper is caused by filing (prototype - milled) of the rail head. The angle is about an 8 degree angle. Harmer steel supplies pre-milled guard and wing rails for prototype rail installations. Their site is also a great resource of trackwork details.

http://www.harmersteel.com/

You may also have noted that I build on paper templates to AREA specifications. My tie placement is different with varied centerlines. I have different asymmetrical frog points, and the geometry has a bit longer lead. I also use a rat-tail file to scratch in and etch a wood grain effect to the PC ties.

_________________
-ed mccamey-
COSLAR RR - http://www.coslar.us/
NMRA Standards and Conformance Department
PROTO & FINE Scale Coordinator
I estimate I have about 5 pounds of coupler springs somewhere in the vicinity of my workbench.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:46 pm 
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Ordered some files. Not cheap, but then I'm going thru the cheap ones mighty fast.

The Harmer Steel link is neat. One of the things I've noticed since I started building turnouts is that whenever I see a prototype picture I'm now also examining the rail work to see how things were done. I've noticed that there were a variety of ways of doing guard rails (and also frogs). I've seen quite a bit of older, narrow gage trackage with the bent guard rail. Your picture appears to be of a more modern installation. I've also noticed a number of situations were there were no wing rails. So I guess there was quite a bit of variation.

I'm working towards building turnouts on a print out. I want to get to where I can do curved switches. They are beautiful and so useful.

Robert


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:59 am 
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Robert,

You won't regret the Vallorbe files. They are the absolute best, and will last a very long time if not abused.

No guardrails means the use of a self guarding frog. This is practical with PROTO standards - but really problematical for 'regular' scale standards. Self guarding frogs can only be constructed with very reliable wheel specifications. There's too much variability in the wheels for 'typical' scale equipment.

Curved turnouts are really smooth and a space saver. Heres a staging yard under construction at my club with curved turnouts using some FastTracks TwistTie bases and one fully hand formed near wye curved turnout.


Attachments:
File comment: Curved staging yard throat under construction
ETMRC_e_throat.JPG
ETMRC_e_throat.JPG [ 36.4 KiB | Viewed 13359 times ]

_________________
-ed mccamey-
COSLAR RR - http://www.coslar.us/
NMRA Standards and Conformance Department
PROTO & FINE Scale Coordinator
I estimate I have about 5 pounds of coupler springs somewhere in the vicinity of my workbench.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:36 pm 
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Posts: 16
Sweet! (As my very cool 24 year old daughter would say;-)

I love flowing curved switches particularly on a broad curve. One of the desires that survived my childhood modeling disasters was the urge to one day be able to design and lay out curved switches. I think given how much I'm learning from building with the jigs that I'll be up for it pretty soon. I guess I'll try using the Fast Track twist ties(?) for my first few attempts.

BTW I found another jewelry site www.ottofrei.com that has Valorbe files and also the best price I've ever seen on a Fordom rotary tool. I ordered one from them.

I tend to take good care of my tools (I make my living doing historic restoration) so I expect the files to be worth every penny. I've been disgusted with the cheap Chinese ones I've been using. I've also decide to make use of 3-way turnouts on my layout and am waiting for the jig to arrive from Tim. I'm not sure how a three way is switched, (2 throws?) but I'll figure it out.

Robert


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